In Depth:  Glen Scrivener

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Why the exclusivity of  Jesus is so wonderful
everyday evangelism

Why the exclusivity of Jesus is so wonderful

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

Recently Pope Francis was fiercely critiqued for his teaching at an interfaith event in Singapore. Both Protestants and Catholics have charged him with the serious error of ‘indifferentism’.

Indifferentism is the belief that all religions are alike in their ability to bring you to God – it doesn’t matter which path you’re on, they all reach the top of the mountain. Whatever his corrections and clarifications later, his words at the Singapore conference sounded suspiciously like that teaching. ‘Every religion is a way to arrive at God’ he said. At the same time he made fun of the kind of person who says: ‘My God is more important than your God’. ‘Is that true?’ he asks the audience, expecting the answer, ‘No’.

What are we like? Is humanity the answer or the problem?
everyday evangelism

What are we like? Is humanity the answer or the problem?

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

The question at the heart of the film The Zone of Interest is also at the heart of evangelism.

It’s a holocaust movie that begins with a picnic. In the Oscar winner, The Zone of Interest, we only hear the horrors of Auschwitz; what we see is the normality of family life. The family in question is that of the Camp Commandant, Rudolph Höss. They live in the ‘manse’, so to speak, only yards outside the gates of the concentration camp. In the bedroom, Rudolph’s wife, Hedwig, tries on fur coats that belonged to the victims. In the dining room, crematorium design is discussed as a triumph of engineering. Outside, the children play while ash clouds blow over from the chimney stacks beyond the garden wall.

Insist on the straight line
everyday evangelism

Insist on the straight line

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

Larry Nassar came to court carrying a Bible. He was charged with sexually abusing 265 girls over two decades while being team doctor for USA Gymnastics. Throughout the trials he made a point of presenting himself as a Christian.

Across the courtroom in January 2018 was a woman he had abused when she was a child – Rachael Denhollander. She was the first victim to go public about Nassar’s abuse and the last of over 200 to give her victim impact statement.

What to say when the  church is crooked
everyday evangelism

What to say when the church is crooked

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

Of all the world’s institutions and movements, the church of Jesus Christ is history’s greatest force for good. It’s also the most blameworthy.

We’ll get to the blameworthiness in a minute, but first let’s consider its goodness because I think it ought to be uncontroversial.

What about the Crusades  and the Inquisition?
everyday evangelism

What about the Crusades and the Inquisition?

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

There are any number of ways the subject might crop up, but crop up it will: ‘Religion causes all wars… ’; ‘Christians are hypocrites… ’; What about the Crusades / the Inquisition / conquistadors… ?’; ‘Those Christians really hurt me… ’.

These are different kinds of statements and, as we’ll see, they should be addressed differently – especially that last one. But there’s one thing they all accomplish: they tempt the Christian to dissociate from church.

Should we ‘forget church, and just look at Jesus’?
everyday evangelism

Should we ‘forget church, and just look at Jesus’?

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

In evangelism Christians have an incredible asset which too many think is a liability: the church.

Last month we considered the advertising campaign ‘He Gets Us’, and its tendency to pit a compassionate Jesus against His judgmental people. But it happens in personal conversations too. The failures of Christ’s people might come up, and the strong temptation can be to throw the church ‘under the bus’.

Lessons from ‘He Gets Us’
everyday evangelism

Lessons from ‘He Gets Us’

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

‘He Gets Us’ is a US ad campaign spending hundreds of millions of dollars to prompt faith conversations in America.

It also seeks to lead interested enquirers to do Bible reading programmes and to connect with local Alpha groups. Their most prominent advertisement to date was their 60-second Superbowl commercial, ‘Foot Washing’, re-imagining John 13 with various representatives of polarised groups washing one another’s feet. It finished with the line ‘Jesus didn’t preach hate. Jesus washed feet.’

Lessons we can learn  from the New Atheists
everyday evangelism

Lessons we can learn from the New Atheists

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

There was little that was new about the New Atheism – a post-9/11, anti-religious movement headed by Richard Dawkins and the like. Certainly the arguments had not progressed from those given by Bertrand Russell a century earlier.

In many ways, the arguments were worse. At least Russell was a philosopher. The New Atheism survived less on logic and more on vibes and vitriol. What was new was the sense of purpose, the moral crusade, the desire to save the world from the sorts of people who fly planes into buildings.

The road to conversion
everyday evangelism

The road to conversion

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

‘I’m still waiting for my road to Damascus moment’. My friend wants to have faith, she says, but it hasn’t happened. She’s waiting for a shining light to convert her.

This idea is fairly common, but it misunderstands the road to Damascus. Saul was a man possessed by anti-Christian hatred. He required an almighty intervention. The road to Damascus was, for him, the creation of Paul the apostle. In a very significant sense, the road to Damascus is a road that only one man has travelled. We misunderstand conversion if we think of that road.

Invitation to festive joy
everyday evangelism

Invitation to festive joy

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

Every year for the last 12, Speak Life has put out a Christmas video, or four.

We’ve made fun of Santa, and we’ve parodied Scrooge. We’ve put on a Down syndrome nativity, and we’ve made a time-travelling rom-com. We’ve viewed Christmas from heaven, from space, and from the Colosseum. We’ve seen it from the perspective of a Christmas tree, a Christmas present and a Christmas mouse. We’ve created animations with dragons, with snow globes, and with Happyland figurines. And last year, because it was the World Cup, our video was called ‘Christmas Coming Home’.

Faith is not a thing
everyday evangelism

Faith is not a thing

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

It’s a truth that’s transformed not only my evangelism, it’s transformed my life. It has lifted countless burdens and focused me on what’s most important. The truth is this: faith is not a thing. 

Here’s what I mean. Faith is not a substance that I summon up. It’s not a muscle that I flex. It’s not a contribution that I offer to God. And that really needs saying because we’re often tempted to think in those terms. Here’s how it happens…

Be present not impressive
everyday evangelism

Be present not impressive

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

Have you ever met someone who makes you reassess your life? Just one meeting with Henry Olonga made me rethink my whole approach to evangelism.

Henry is an impressive man: a lightning-quick bowler for Zimbabwe’s national cricket team (1995–2003); an operatically trained singer with a Zimbabwean number one; a popular contestant – and sometimes winner – in multiple TV talent shows; and a shining light for Jesus. This is how I once thought of evangelism. It’s about adding more and more accomplishments to your CV, then bolting on an emphatic ‘and a Christian!’

Wearing your team colours
everyday evangelism

Wearing your team colours

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

Barring the rain, the summer of 2023 contained some of the most exciting cricket in Ashes history.

As an Australian, I lived the ups, the downs, and the damp squibs – perhaps you did too, though in the opposite direction. Australia does well in Australia but, as far as English fans are concerned, that all happens in the middle of the night. Series in England are what count for the English. And in England, Australia haven’t won outright for 20 years. In that time I’ve never had to set up any scores notifications on my phone. Every Australian wicket that falls and every English victory that’s won is instantly texted to me by friends – often accompanied by the line: ‘We beat you!’

Are you glad in your faith?
everyday evangelism

Are you glad in your faith?

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

For the last few columns we’ve been trying to follow Blaise Pascal’s advice about persuading the sceptical.

Before his death in 1662 he suggested that we make people of good will ‘wish it were true, then show them that it is.’ I promise we’ll move on from this Pascalian perspective next month, but allow me one last word on the subject. In this column it’s very much a case of ‘once more with feeling.’

Isn’t Christianity restrictive?
everyday evangelism

Isn’t Christianity restrictive?

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

‘You’re gonna struggle to get anyone in my generation coming to church.’ So said an agnostic Jew I spoke with recently.

We had a wide-ranging conversation about fascinating subjects. He acknowledged many of the benefits of Christianity but remained utterly uninterested in taking things further. Why?

Facing the sneers of our  post-Christian culture
everyday evangelism

Facing the sneers of our post-Christian culture

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

When people despise the faith, how should we proceed?

Blaise Pascal, who we’ve been considering over the last couple of months, offers help. In his native France of the 17th century, he faced his culture’s sneer with a joy-filled, three-pronged response. He advised that we speak to Christianity’s respectability; its desirability; and its truth. The order is important. It will be nearly impossible to convince our friends of anything they would hate to be true. Humans are too good at self-justification for that.

Judgement & Succession
everyday evangelism

Judgement & Succession

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

In recent columns I’ve been enthusing about Pascalian evangelism. The 17th-century thinker, Blaise Pascal, recommended a three-stage strategy with those who ‘despise religion’. First, show them Christianity’s respectability, then its desirability, then its truth.

Over the next three columns, I’ll apply the strategy to three commonly raised questions in evangelism: judgement; sex; and freedom. This month, let’s address the subject of judgement:

‘Make them wish it were  true… and show it’
everyday evangelism

‘Make them wish it were true… and show it’

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

Last month I ended with some words from Blaise Pascal (1623–1662). Here’s the full quotation:

‘Men despise religion. They hate it and are afraid it may be true. The cure for this is first to show that religion is not contrary to reason, but worthy of reverence and respect. Next, make it attractive, make good men wish it were true, and then show that it is.’

But what would convince  you, my friend?
everyday evangelism

But what would convince you, my friend?

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

‘What would convince you to believe?’ It’s a question I once put to an atheist, not expecting a particularly thorough answer.

Clearly, though, he’d been asked the question before. His reply was instant, detailed and emphatic: ‘If God rearranged the stars in the sky to spell the Ten Commandments, then I would believe.’ When it comes to setting the bar for evidence, my friend set it to galactic heights. How to respond?

Jesus: lunatic, liar or Lord  – but definitely not legend
everyday evangelism

Jesus: lunatic, liar or Lord – but definitely not legend

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

‘The world would have been unfathomably different without Jesus.’ So says historian Tom Holland, co-host of the world’s number one podcast, The Rest Is History.

It was launched in 2020 but by Christmas 2022 it topped the Apple charts in almost every country on earth. Having written Dominion, a bestselling history of Christianity, Tom, along with co-presenter Dominic Sandbrook, have gained 52 million downloads for their affable historical chats.

Are evangelicals ‘people who  don’t have any questions’?
everyday evangelism

Are evangelicals ‘people who don’t have any questions’?

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

In the Gospels, Jesus was asked around 180 questions and He almost never gave a straight answer.

Instead he asked over 300 questions of His own. When we considered these facts last month we applied the lessons to situations in which we are on the receiving end. This month I want to consider the power of questions and how we can be proactive in asking them.

Do you diatribe or dialogue?
everyday evangelism

Do you diatribe or dialogue?

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

When discussing our faith, what should we do with difficult questions? Ask them.

This was the way with Jesus. He asked over 300 questions in the Gospels. On the other hand He was asked around 180 questions. (I haven’t counted these up myself, I’m relying on the work of others, including Randy Newman whose book Questioning Evangelism is excellent.)

‘Him we proclaim’
everyday evangelism

‘Him we proclaim’

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

Nothing has clarified and encouraged my evangelism more than these three words: ‘Him we proclaim’ (Col. 1:28).

The ‘Him’ is of course ‘Christ’, the One who is in you (v.27). Christ is even in the Gentile Colossians. Christ has come to outsiders like us through the wonder of the gospel and now, says Paul, Christ will spread even further – to the uttermost ends of the earth. How? The One who is in us will come out of us through proclamation.

Hercules or Lazarus?
everyday evangelism

Hercules or Lazarus?

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

Hercules at the Crossroads has been painted many times. It’s a classic depiction of choice.

At a fork in the road, the mythic hero must decide which path to take. There is a scantily clad woman enticing him to go the way of vice. Another woman, matronly and scolding, urges him along the much harder path of virtue. What will he do? Well he’s Hercules. He will choose the difficult path of virtue, obviously. That’s what heroes do. And the moral of the story is: Be like Hercules.

Angry evangelism and 
 some remedies
everyday evangelism

Angry evangelism and some remedies

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

I don’t know how much evangelism is angry evangelism, but from what I’ve seen I’m going to say a non-zero amount.

Some gospelling is angry gospelling. Given that the word gospel means ‘good news’, you’d think that the angry heralding of good news would be absurd. And it is. But that doesn’t stop it happening.

Love your neighbour:  a strategy to reach the  world
everyday evangelism

Love your neighbour: a strategy to reach the world

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

It used to be much more difficult to connect with our neighbour (that’s neighbour singular – we’re at the end of a terrace). He spoke no English and would furtively dart in and out of the property. When the police hauled him away we learned that he’d converted the whole house and its roof space into an indoor cannabis farm. I had no idea he was so entrepreneurial.

The new tenant, let’s call her Debs, is a mum of three and a smoker (of the tobacco variety). I mention this only because she is out smoking on our shared porch 20 times a day, which is bad for her health but, I hope, good for her soul.

Evangelical Futures: BWWs – the ‘Blokes Worth Watching’ conveyor belt...

Evangelical Futures: BWWs – the ‘Blokes Worth Watching’ conveyor belt...

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

In their 2009 book, The Trellis and the Vine, Colin Marshall and Tony Payne gave us the evocative image of supporting structures (the trellis) surrounding the organic growth of God’s people (the vine).

Their argument was: both are needed. Here my brief is to write about evangelical churches in Britain. And as I consider this movement of churches that I love, I can’t help thinking we have a wonderful vine and, at points, a wonky trellis. That trellis – our systems and the assumptions behind them – needs urgent scrutiny.

Stories to win the world
everyday evangelism

Stories to win the world

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

Long before Nathan, the prophet, told his story (2 Sam. 12), David was living in an alternative story, a delusion actually.

In David’s fantasy, he, the hero, was able to lust, steal, kill and cover it all up (2 Sam. 11). Presumably he thought he could do this because he was the king. The trouble is, all of us are like David. We lust and take and kill too (Matt. 5:2 1-30; James 4:1-2), and we’ve all followed that pattern since the garden (Gen. 3:6).

Capturing imaginations
everyday evangelism

Capturing imaginations

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

When it comes to communicating Christian truth, illustrations are often considered to be decorative. They are added extras, definitely not essential. Stories can be dismissed as a poor substitute for hard logic.

Perhaps they’re considered a concentration break, or an added dash of emotion to spice up your gospel presentation. Mostly, stories and illustrations are thought of as a sideshow while the real business is to state truths as plainly as possible. This, of course, is not the way people tick, nor the way the Scriptures present truth.

Critiques of Christianity  are Christian critiques
everyday evangelism

Critiques of Christianity are Christian critiques

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

Critiques of Christianity abound, and many of the fiercest come from within the church.

Last month we considered the ‘deconstruction’ movement, where a number of believers (especially among evangelicals in the West) are questioning the fundamentals of their faith and practice. Whether such critique arises from inside or outside the church, the criticisms are both searching and familiar:

Powerful Leaders: Glen Scrivener reviews this key book

Powerful Leaders: Glen Scrivener reviews this key book

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

Book Review POWERFUL LEADERS: When Church Leadership Goes Wrong And How To Prevent It

Read review
Preaching to the de-converted
everyday evangelism

Preaching to the de-converted

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

How do you commend the faith to those who consider themselves to be ‘over it’?

They’ve ‘been there, done that, binned the T-shirt.’ The question is especially tricky if your picture of evangelism is to stand outside the front door of the church, as it were, beckoning people in.

If you want a <i>God</i> conversation, aim for a <i>good</i> conversation
everyday evangelism

If you want a <i>God</i> conversation, aim for a <i>good</i> conversation

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

‘DO NOT TRY TO CONVERT ME TO CHRISTIANITY!’ This was my friend’s last message to me – caps-locked! – as we arranged a meet-up the following day.

We’ve known each other for nearly 30 years. For the last 20 of them I’ve been a Christian, something he’s been fine about, as long as I keep it to myself. He is – as you can tell – not open to an evangelistic encounter!

The priesthood of all  believers: is it really what  you think it is?
everyday evangelism

The priesthood of all believers: is it really what you think it is?

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

‘Gosh, that was marvellous, I could never do that’ said the woman next to me at an evangelism seminar.

We had just watched an excellent evangelist run a 90-minute training session on leading others to Christ. We both agreed that the session was terrific and we both agreed that we could not do what the evangelist had just done (and I say this as someone with ‘Evangelist’ on my business card). But I think we can all recognise the sentiment.

Three questions on  evangelism and the three  wrong right answers!
everyday evangelism

Three questions on evangelism and the three wrong right answers!

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

When I train people in personal evangelism there are three questions I ask which always elicit the right wrong answers.

They are the right wrong answers because they are the ones I expect people to give. But they’re also the right wrong answers because, in their own way, they are correct. It’s just that you can be correct and wrong at the same time. Let me share the three questions and the answers they usually provoke:

everyday evangelism

Outreach is a team sport

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

I am a ‘Champion’ and an ‘Enthusiast.’ That’s if you consult some of the more popular personality tests.

On the Myers-Briggs scale (a system for categorising personalities) I come out as a feelsy extrovert who loves big-picture concepts and last-minute ‘preparation’. Add it all together and a Myers-Briggs devotee will slap the label on me: ‘Champion’. That means I will heartily endorse the latest IDEA or BOOK or FILM or GADGET. ‘You’ve got to see this thing’, I’ll say, wide-eyed (while the introverts nervously edge out of the room).

Reasons not to plan mission  events (and reasons to do so)
everyday evangelism

Reasons not to plan mission events (and reasons to do so)

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

In the last decade I’ve been involved with scores of week-long or weekend missions put on by churches and Christian Unions.

Such outreaches – like those planned for the Passion for Life initiative next year – are big investments. We need some solid reasons to give of our time, money, talents and energy. Often though our reasons are poor.

Why the shocking  effectiveness of Old  Testament evangelism  shouldn’t shock us
everyday evangelism

Why the shocking effectiveness of Old Testament evangelism shouldn’t shock us

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

Verse-by-verse exposition of obscure Old Testament texts has been, hands down, the most fruitful evangelism I’ve done in the last six months. Come with me as I marvel at that fact and try to draw some lessons from it.

Back in February, the Miller and Martin report into the sexual, spiritual and financial abuse of Ravi Zacharias was released. In response to the shocking evil uncovered, I reached for an Old Testament passage to try to shed light on the contemporary crisis.

everyday evangelism

God’s plan to reach the world: it might surprise you

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

‘If I became a Christian, I would have to spend every waking moment trying to save others.’

The words came from an extremely intelligent student considering the call of Christ – let’s call him Phil. It was the last night of a university mission and Phil told me he was terrified of the gospel being true because if it was he couldn’t imagine how he could justify anything other than a life of unceasing evangelism from that day on.

How to tell your story  (without being the hero)
everyday evangelism

How to tell your story (without being the hero)

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

‘Sharing your testimony’ is the bread and butter of many evangelistic strategies. As is often said: ‘No-one can argue with your story’.

Notice how the man born blind answers the Pharisees in John 9: ‘I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!’ It’s the most brilliant riposte (not that it endeared him to his questioners!). But it gives hope to every Christian. I don’t have all the answers, but I do have a story.

Is evangelism to blame?
 A Buddhist critiques our 
 lack of godliness
everyday evangelism

Is evangelism to blame? A Buddhist critiques our lack of godliness

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

On the Speak Life Podcast, Paul Feesey and I have been discussing the various scandals rocking the evangelical world — particularly those of Ravi Zacharias and Jonathan Fletcher.

While some have questioned our focus on these topics (when we’re meant to be inspiring evangelism), one listener had the opposite observation. Writing as a Buddhist he had some blistering criticisms of the evangelical church – a critique which I think is very worth considering.

How you can be a  pastoral evangelist
everyday evangelism

How you can be a pastoral evangelist

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

Picture an evangelist. What springs to mind? Perhaps a motormouth with the enthusiasm of a labrador pup, the skin of a rhinoceros’s hide, the social skills of a boisterous toddler, and the patter of a ‘Phones 4 U’ sales rep.

Now picture someone you’d describe as ‘really pastoral.’ What are the images now? Surely it’s endless cups of tea, frowns of concern, head cocked permanently to a 45 degree angle. ‘Aw bless’ they say with an empathy perilously close to patronising.

Remember three lines!
everyday evangelism

Remember three lines!

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

What does ‘apologetics’ mean to you? If you haven’t heard of it before, the word is taken from a verse in Peter’s first letter.

But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15).

The power of ‘Dunno,  what do you reckon?’
everyday evangelism

The power of ‘Dunno, what do you reckon?’

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

What should we do when confronted with difficult questions about the faith?

For many Christians the fear of encountering such questions keeps them from being public about their Christianity, but such fears needn’t paralyse us. Here are two ways of engaging even when you don’t know ‘The Answer’.

Four questions to make  your evangelism more  practical
everyday evangelism

Four questions to make your evangelism more practical

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

‘They found [Jesus] in the temple courts, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions’ (Luke 2:46).

When heaven’s Answer met earth, he came with questions. The very first Gospel account of His words describes Him ‘asking them questions’. This isn’t simply to do with His young age. This is His ancient way. Right from the beginning – right from ‘Adam, where are you?’ – God’s Wisdom has engaged in dialogue, not simply download. And so in the Gospels, Jesus puts 290 different questions to his hearers. That’s over three per chapter – which is a lot!

everyday evangelism

Time to move on?

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

Sometimes your very best evangelistic move is to move on. That may sound counter-intuitive or perhaps defeatist. But before I clarify what I do and don’t mean, think about the Biblical warrant for ‘moving on’.

‘Do not cast your pearls before swine’ (Matt. 7:6).

Is our Christmas outreach  tinsel on the outside but  Grinch on the inside?
everyday evangelism

Is our Christmas outreach tinsel on the outside but Grinch on the inside?

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

Where do you place Christmas in the story of salvation? Your answer to this question reveals much about your understanding of the gospel. And it will powerfully shape the way you approach the festive season, evangelistically.

Some consider Christmas to be, essentially, the beginning of the story. Forgetting the Old Testament, this telling of the tale starts in Bethlehem, but climaxes far away at Golgotha. On this understanding, Christmas is the opening five minutes of the biopic, but the real action happens much further down the line.

Nail your colours to the  mast – it’s good for others  and vital for you!
everyday evangelism

Nail your colours to the mast – it’s good for others and vital for you!

Glen Scrivener
Glen Scrivener

Three and a half thousand years ago, or February as it’s otherwise known, my social media feeds were filled with reports of YouTubers and American comedy duo Rhett and Link publicly ‘deconverting’ from their Christian faith.

It was an odd deconversion. In other tragic cases we’ve seen Christian celebrities making an announcement on Instagram, accompanied by moody selfies and the appropriate hashtags: #authentic, #followingmytruth, or #stillbelieveinlove. That’s the pattern, but Rhett and Link took a different turn. They had to because the comedy duo had never, in 15 years, gotten around to telling their audience they were Christian to start with! So the first step was to come clean that they had been Christian – and they really had been very Christian, like missionary-level Christian – and then, having described decades in the faith over the course of a couple of podcasts, they were ready for the true reveal: they weren’t Christians now. Just like most of their fans thought they weren’t anyway! Told you it was an odd deconversion.